photo: Noah Smith

Have you ever had a colonoscopy? Or did you vote in Obama’s first election? If yes, I have some bad news for you. You’re getting old. But hey, don’t sweat it, I have some good news too. Heroin is an option.

Because of this, I called up Fos to pick his brain about Heroin’s success. And once I got him on the line, I kept him there. Enjoy this 3,000+ word journey, I know I did.

Pardon the pun, but I’m sensing a chicken and egg situation here. Did the resurgence of shaped boards bring back “fun” skating or did “fun” skating make people want shaped boards?
Shaped boards brought back fun skating. To me, skateboarding should be fun. And when you run a brand it’s easy to lose sight of that. A lot of what is going on, like X Games, Street League, and all these contests of, “Oh, who’s the best?” and, “Who’s going to get Skater of the Year?” doesn’t matter to me at all. And it shouldn’t. And I don’t think it matters to the majority of our customers and our audience. We just want to be out there and skate because it’s fun.

Has that genre of “old guy curb skater” changed in the last 5-10 years?
Well, those guys have always been around. You could go to Costco at any point over the last 10 years and early morning there would have been someone there skating. But we empowered curb skating and that audience because we sort of shone a light on it. And we gave them the egg boards and the bigger boards and they were the ones who really took it and ran with it. Skaters that age were like, “Oh wait, I’m 40, 45 years old and these guys are my age and they’re having fun. And skating these boards that seem to be fun.”

Also, I get DMs all the time, like every single day really, from 45 year olds who haven’t skated for five or ten years, saying, “Thank you for making skateboarding fun.” That’s really rad.

photo: Fos by Noah Smith

I’ve heard that Heroin is one of the best-selling board brands in the industry right now. Like totally overshadowing other bigger brands. Is that true?
I don’t know, because I don’t get to see what other brands are doing, but we had our best year ever last year. So yeah, I could see that we’re doing pretty good and Baker Boys seems really happy with where we’re at. And because of that, I get to do whatever the fuck I want, which is great.

I’ll go into Baker Boys like, “Hey, I want to do like a 14-inch wide board,” and they used to be like “What the fuck are you talking about?” Now they’re like, “Okay? I guess you kind of know what you’re doing because all your stuff sells out every season.”

Are you rich now?
No! Definitely, definitely not. I still drive a beat up 1999 Ford Explorer that I bought off Dead Dave [Laughs].

“Everything I do I feel like I’m taking a chance. It’s always: Are we gonna be left with a pallet of these in the warehouse that we can’t sell?”

Do you consider social media virality when you are creating a new shape or product?
Oh, absolutely not. Everything I do I feel like I’m taking a chance. It’s always, “Are we gonna be left with a pallet of these in the warehouse that we can’t sell?” But everything we do is genuine. Swampy really does skate an Eggzilla, and I’ve seen him unlock stuff that I’ve never seen anyone do before.

Social media is a secondary thing. We don’t monetize it. We don’t do YouTube or any of that stuff. We’re just out here doing this thing any day of the week, and half the time we’re not even filming it.

Tell me whether you agree or disagree with this statement: Heroin changed skateboarding when they decided to sponsor and turn older, non-traditional skaters pro.
Yeah, I’d agree with that. I don’t want to sound too cocky, but I think we affected skateboarding and I feel like it started with egg shapes and sponsoring folks like Ira [Ingram] and Tim [Olson]. Giving them boards definitely went hand in hand with a lot of things that were all happening at the same time, like the emergence and popularity of curb skating. It all sort of hit at the same time.

Slappies have had a hell of a comeback.
Yeah, I mean you get to see Ronnie Creager doing them, you get to see Ace Pelka. It’s exciting, and it’s really fun. Hey, who knows, maybe it was one of those tricks that people overlooked a little bit and it didn’t get explored as fully as it could have back in the day. Now people are going back to it and going, “Oh, let’s see what’s possible.”

“People have families and other commitments. So do I. You choose your own level of involvement with my brand.”

Are there any downsides to sponsoring older skaters?
I’ve never been a hard ass on trying to push people and get them to do stuff they don’t want to do. And I understand that people have families and other commitments. So do I. You choose your own level of involvement with my brand, you know?

It’s never, “Hey, you have a new board coming up, we need a video part.” If there’s a video part and someone wants to do it, then that’s cool. But the release of the older guys boards is more of a special thing, almost like a guest board more than a pro board. And we have a whole other team, with pros like Dalton [Dern] and Dead Dave. They’re the ones who have a board every single season. The older guys don’t know if they’re getting a board that season or not.

We all know different board sizes work better for different tricks, but when you start riding a 10.8, or 14, what tricks can you realistically do?
This is where it gets fun. Our audience doesn’t necessarily have just one board. They have a quiver. Like, “Oh, 9.125 is my perfect board, but I’ve also got the 9.5 and the 10.75.” They’re for different things, kind of like golf. You have a different club depending on how you want to hit the ball.

That’s such a pro move.
Yes, and that’s the thing. Older guys are like, “Oh, I’m not as good as these kids who are coming up and I’m at a skate park with a bunch of teenagers and they’re kind of obnoxious.” You shouldn’t have to stop skateboarding because of that. You can take it back to the curbs like you did when you were a kid, you know? And there’s definitely a nostalgia element to it. If you grew up watching Danny Sargent skate, or all the early New Deal and Powell videos, skating curbs is a huge part of that.

It’s like when people collect action figures. People collect Star Wars figures because it reminds them of their youth and they have this sort of sentimentality. So I suppose it goes in with that. Like, “Oh yeah, I used to skate curbs when I was a kid, so I’m gonna go back to that.”

“I see brands all the time copying that shape. I’m not going to name names, they know who they are.”

Franky Villani skates your egg shape and Primitive uses it for his pro board. Is that cool with you?
Yeah, that’s my boy, and he’s got my blessing for it. I did his first graphic and I was like, “All right. You can use that shape for Franky.” But I see brands all the time copying that shape. I’m not going to name names, they know who they are and they call it the egg, which nobody called it that before I did. I’m not trying to give myself too much credit, it’s just the truth.

photo: Swampy by Matt Fookes

What’s your opinion on someone like Andy Anderson, because he’s quite the polarizing character when it comes to “core skateboarding” but seems up Heroin’s alley in terms of trick selection and creativity?
The era of skateboarding we live in right now is a pretty fucking rad one. Anyone can skate and everybody’s welcome and you can do whatever you want. There’s not really a wrong answer. Someone may not be for you, but it doesn’t matter. Someone like Andy has his people that think he’s the greatest thing ever and love him and only skate his boards. That’s amazing.

If you’re like, “Ah, I don’t really like him. He’s a kook.” that’s fine. You can like Shin Sanbongi, or Chris Russell, or Sky Brown, or Chandler Burton. There’s something for everybody.

So what do you say to the skater who believes skateboarding should be one way? How do you stave off that feeling?
I don’t have to, you know? Because they’re wrong. But I know what you mean, like people trying to gatekeep. Look, we have our audience. We’ve built the community. That’s what’s important. Of course you’re going to get these people saying, “Oh, that’s not legit,” but whatever, I’ve heard that since day fucking one. They don’t matter now and they’ve never mattered. I’ve never paid attention to those people. And if I had, we’d have stopped doing this a long, long, time ago.

“CCS refused to stock us for like 12 years because of the name.”

Has there been a point where the name Heroin held you back as a brand?
Yes and no. I mean, it clearly held us back. CCS refused to stock us for like 12 years because of the name. It was only when my friend Matt Price started working there that they started stocking us. But here’s the thing, say five shops refuse to sell it. Like, “That name’s terrible. We have a problem with that in our town. You’re a terrible human!” Whatever. Then the next shop that does sell it will do way better with it because you can’t get it at other shops. It makes it more desirable, and it’s better in that respect.

Is there a fundamental manufacturing issue when it comes to why more board companies don’t experiment? Is it just too expensive to build different presses and make different things?
Well, most of the boards come from the same five factories anyway, so they can do it, but I think a lot of people are nervous to break out of the, “Oh, let’s just make 8.25 popsicles because they sell,” mindset. But that’s kind of boring, right? It’s got a straight side, it’s got probably a 14 and a quarter wheelbase. It’s the same exact skateboard, and that can be through Creature, DGK, Antihero, like whatever company.

It’s funny, all we’re really doing is branding. That’s the only difference. It’s the same board, and everyone’s been making this one board for years and years and years.

You have a super diverse team, from Chris Pulman to Dalton Dern. I’m interested in your take on what makes someone a pro skateboarder?
It’s funny, I’ll post a clip of someone who’s not even really on the team yet, and people will be like, “When’s he going pro?” And I’m like, “Dude, he hasn’t had one video part out yet. What do you mean?” But I almost don’t turn anyone pro, people turn themselves pro by their output.

People don’t understand that the currency we work with in skateboarding nowadays is social media. Love it or hate it or whatever. Filming skateboarding and shooting photos and putting that out is the currency that we work with and if someone’s doing that and they’re getting out there and putting themselves out there, then of course they’ll go pro. Like with Dalton, of course he went pro. And it was funny because he was so surprised that night that we turned him pro. He didn’t know where he stood, but by the time he was done filming his part, it was obvious he’s pro. He’s at every event, killing it, filming. You turned yourself pro, man.

How important is someone’s personality when you consider them for the team?
Our rider Craig Questions, he’s always hard on himself, like, “I’m shit and all the kids coming up can do all the tricks I can do, but way better.” And I was like, “Yeah, but you have the personality, man.” He does a trick with such aggression and power and confidence. And you’re just like, “That looks really cool.”

That’s what attracts me to my riders. Everyone has a personality. I’ve been in the industry a long time and I’ve seen people go on tours and sit in the back of a van and listen to their iPods or whatever and not talk to anyone. And it’s just like, “What the fuck are you doing?” You’re on tour in Europe and you’re not interacting with anyone or even looking out the window. Your personality is not going to develop if you’re like that.

Without Heroin, would the majority of your riders be sponsorless?
I’ve heard people say that if they didn’t ride for Heroin, they don’t know if they’d be sponsored. But everyone has different circumstances. Someone like Dalton could ride for whoever, he just happens to ride for us and it’s awesome. I think the majority of them would find homes though, they all rip.

I’m sorry if I lack a little bit of perspective here because of my age, but was there ever an era of Heroin where you guys were gunning to compete with top skate companies?
Oh, absolutely not. It was always an alternative to that. We couldn’t compete with [Eric] Koston or Heath [Kirchart] and what those guys were doing with pushing skateboarding. We were just like this rinky-dink little company.

photo: Ira by Taylor Ballard

Has Heroin ever made a 7.75?
Oh yeah. Fuck, we made a 7.25 for like the first ten years when Chapman Skateboards was making our boards. Now we make a board that’s twice as big [laughs].

Recently I’ve heard people saying something along the lines of, “The last thing we need is another board brand..” Did you ever deal with that?
Oh, all the time. I never felt like I was invited into skateboarding. I felt like we had to carve our own way all the time. Even working at Slam [City Skates] and being in the warehouse. I never felt like Heroin was accepted or respected by the majority of the industry. It was always a battle. It was all, “Oh yeah, that’s some kooky brand with a name.” Even now, we’re doing good and people are like, “Oh, why are they doing good?”

“I never felt like Heroin was accepted or respected by the majority of the industry. It was always a battle.”

In your opinion, how does a pro skater age gracefully?
We actually had a retirement party for [Daniel] Shimizu and it was incredible. It was like the funnest event. He hadn’t been skating as much and you know, had a board with his name on and he knew it was kind of time. I think it goes back to what I was saying about the currency with which we operate: are you shooting photos and shooting tricks and filming tricks? If you’re a pro skateboarder, you should always be doing that. If you’re not doing that, then maybe it’s time to knock it on the head. If you’re trying to live off your name because you were in it 20 years ago, it might be time to retire.

When we did that Shimizu retirement party thing somebody was like, “Did he know about it?” And I was like, “Well, yeah, it wasn’t like a mystery. It’s his retirement party.” Although that would have been fucking brilliant, like “Hey, surprise! You’re not pro anymore. Here’s a cake.”

Do you have any advice for someone who may have lost the feeling of having fun with skateboarding or feel they’re too old?
Go and do some slappies [laughs]. I mean, the act of skateboarding is really fun in itself. It is really fun to just stand on a skateboard and roll, right? Just don’t forget that feeling. You don’t have to be good.

I’ve been thinking, what we do for pleasure is so weird. I grew up in a little town in England with a ski slope, and I remember skiing down one day thinking how weird it is that we do this for fun. Standing and going down a slope on skis. It’s so strange, and if you step back, everything is like that. Golf’s fucking strange! Hitting little balls into holes? People who make fun of us for skateboarding at 50 need to remember, everything’s weird.

“People who make fun of us for skateboarding at 50 need to remember,
everything’s weird.”

Is skateboarding still punk to you?
I went to see Fantastic Four last night at a mall in Glendale, and I saw a Converse store and thought, “Yep, there’s skateboarding.” But it’s not a whole skate display, it’s like someone I don’t know skating next to a model, next to some other random stuff. It’s just one part of what they do. You get people skating for these companies like that and it’s adopted by the mainstream. They’re like, “Oh, we got to sell these models, let’s have someone free running or skydiving,” you know? It’s their perception of what’s cool.

But despite all that stuff skateboarding is still punk and it’s gonna be forever because we’re breaking into schoolyards and trespassing on private property and making our own DIYs. We’re smashing cars into posts to make them wallie-able. It’s a crime, and let’s keep it that way.

You started Heroin 25 plus years ago. How do you keep things feeling fresh?
We’re not afraid to try something new, and because of this, I think the public’s perception is that we’re still a “new” brand. There’s something to be said there, and a benefit to us. I didn’t think that being perceived as a legacy brand would work for us. Santa Cruz and Powell do it very well, but they have that 40 year old legacy. When other brands try to survive as a legacy brand, sometimes it falls a little flat or doesn’t really seem to have the same impact.

I’ll leave it with this one, which is a question from our boy Thomas. If the world was about to end, would you try heroin one time?
No [laughs]. Definitely not. And the world probably is about to end, if we’re honest. But I’m straight edge, man. I’ve been drug free forever.

Interview by: Ben Komins
Photos by: Noah Smith, Matt Fookes, and Taylor Ballard
Transcription assist: Caleb Espinoza
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